Cheryl Broom (00:00.078)
Hi, I'm Cheryl Broom, CEO of Graduate Communications and host of Higher Education Coffee and Conversation. This month I have such an amazing guest on. I am super excited about our conversation. I learned so much when I was talking to him about storytelling, how to be a better storyteller, how to

interview people to get better stories out of them, the power of persuasion, and even one of my favorite topics, how to run a better meeting. Andy is the co-founder and director of the Goodman Center, and his entire job is to teach people and organizations around the globe how to use storytelling to better tell the story of why they exist and what they do. He is just absolutely phenomenal.

And he's worked for clients like the Nature Conservancy, the Boys and Girls Club, the San Diego Zoo, Princeton, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and so many others. He's a phenomenal individual, a really smart guy, and I think you're gonna get a lot out of listening to him tell you how to be a better storyteller. So without further ado, here he is. thank you so much for listening, and I hope you enjoy.

Thank you so much for joining me today. I really, really appreciate your time. And I just want to start off by having you introduce yourself to the audience because you have a really unique and special area of expertise. And I think the people listening to this podcast are going to get so much from you. I'm really excited to have you on today. Well, thanks very much. So my name is Andy Goodman. I'm director of the Goodman Center.

If you've never heard of the Goodman Center, we are a communications training and coaching firm that helps people like you listening today reach more people with more impact. And we've been doing it for 23 years. You specialize in storytelling and you have a story to tell yourself. How did you get to what you're doing today? Yeah, so it was a long and winding road. This is not what I dreamt about doing growing up. When I was growing up in White Plains, New York.

Cheryl Broom (02:22.999)
I grew up like most children of the 50s and 60s watching television. And so I watched a lot of sitcoms growing up. And I thought writing a sitcom would be the most fun ever. So my dream was to move to Hollywood and to write for a network sitcom. And in 1991, I got my chance. We were living in Connecticut at the time, me and my wife and my son of a year and a half old. Picked up everything, moved to Los Angeles.

We had six months of money in the bank. I said, okay, I'm gonna either gonna find a job in six months or we're gonna pick up and go home with our tail between our legs. And in the sixth month, I got a job on a show on ABC on Friday nights called Dinosaurs. It was a Disney Penson co-production. Imagine people in dinosaur suits. It was kind of like the Flintstones or the honeymooners. and I worked on that show for three seasons, had a lot of fun.

And then when it was canceled by Disney, I went worked on another show called The Nanny on CBS with Fran Dresher. Worked on that show for three episodes. And that's when I decided that life was too short to deal with Hollywood. And I got out of the TV business and I went to run a nonprofit that was started by Norman Lear and some of his friends called the Environmental Media Association or Emma. And the whole idea of Emma was to work with writers and producers of TV shows and movies.

People like I used to be, trying to convince them to put environmental messages into their stories. So I did that for five years. And that got me into the nonprofit world and the public interest world, where I started to meet people at nonprofits and foundations and government agencies and colleges and universities. And as I would meet these people at conferences and gatherings and workshops and fundraisers, I would find that these were wonderful, nice people.

passionate about what they did, but not highly trained in talking about it. And so in 1998, as I said, 23 years ago, I started my own firm, the Goodman Center, with the express purpose of helping these good people tell a more effective story about what they do. I love how neat you are. I mean, you think storytelling, well, that's something everybody knows how to do, but people don't do it very well.

Cheryl Broom (04:41.463)
And you ask people what they do and what their organizations are, and they start giving you facts and numbers and statistics, and they miss the whole story. Who have you like worked with over the years? You've you've worked in education, healthcare. Who are some of the clients that you've had? Well, let's see, in the nonprofit sector, that's really where we started. we've worked with many organizations such as American Red Cross, Environmental Defense Fund, Boys and Girls Clubs, YMCA is.

We work with foundations like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, Robert Wood Johnson, Packard, Hewlett. We work with government agencies, CDC, Department of Energy, Smithsonian, and we've worked with colleges and universities. We've worked with MIT, UCLA, USC, Michigan State, Skidmore, Occidental, all different kinds of colleges and universities around the country. And we also have some corporate clients as well. We work with Bank of America.

We've worked with General Electric, Prudential, and others. And we've also been fortunate enough to work all around the globe. we work with CARE in Guatemala. We work with the African Leadership University and Mauritius. We work with GE executives in Beijing. So it's it's been a it's been a wild ride across sectors and around the world. Wow, that's amazing. That is so cool. But what is it like? Like what do you actually do? you know, so I I ask people to tell stories and then they pay me. It's just a remarkable business model.

no, I mean what we do is we teach people about storytelling. What we tell them is, you know, we're here to remind you that you are a natural storyteller. It's funny, Cheryl. A lot of people say, you know, we're attorneys, we're the worst. We're doctors, we're the worst. You know, we're academics, we're the worst. They'll revel in how bad they are. And yet, these are human beings who go home every day and will tell stories about their day. And so

What we're really do is we remind them that you are natural storytellers. You know how to do it. And if you just relax and get out of your own way, you can tell stories just as well about your work as you do every day when you go home and talk to your spouse, your partner, sh your significant other, your children, or whomever. The power of a good story, it really is remarkable. And we do tell stories, and that's human beings gather around campfires and tell stories. That's who we are.

Cheryl Broom (07:02.541)
Yes. But why do organizations struggle so much with it? You know, I think that they they kind of get it pounded into them that you need the the sound science, you need the hard evidence, you need the data to prove, you know, that what you do works. Because, you know, sometimes stories can be seen as cherry-picked. You you you can tell a good story about anything, you know, good or bad, and it can convince people, but it can also stories can be used for evil purposes because.

Stories are so powerful. So sometimes people think the story is not enough. You know, we must have the data. And what I tell people is you really need both. You need a story to get people to nod their heads and say, yes, I relate to that. You know, I feel that. That makes sense to me. And then you need the data to back up that story to say, and I didn't just cherry pick this story. This story is illustrative of many stories. There's much more behind this.

So one of the things we say to our clients is if persuasion is part of what you do, if changing how people think and behave is part of what you do, it starts with a story that gets people to stop, look and listen. And then it's backed by data that says to them, and I have more than one story to tell you. You know, you had said that stories are so powerful. And I was reflecting on what I hear so much from my clients in universities and colleges, where they

Especially a marketing director. So most most of the people I work with are marketing directors and then college presidents. And college presidents seem to be really good telling stories. I mean, they have to, they're out raising money and they seem to realize the power of storytelling. And I hear so much from marketing directors that they, you know, they'll put all their money, their budget into these strategies and they're doing fantastic. And they can tell you, like, this is how many clicks we got on an ad, and this is how many people visit the website and this is how many phone calls we got.

And then like one person will come in and be like, I was talking to this student, and the student said they were driving down the street and a bus went by and they saw an ad on the bus and it motivated them. And it's like the one story about what you're not doing, it doesn't matter all the data you have. Somebody came in and just like destroyed you because one person saw a bus once. It's a testament to the power of story. I mean, the thing is, this is how our minds work.

Cheryl Broom (09:29.495)
And there's a lot of science around this too. You know, right now in your brain, my brain, anybody who's listening brain, there are literally thousands of stories about the way the world works. They're in there. And anytime you encounter a new person or place or situation, whether you know it or not, your brain automatically dials up the right story to say, okay, where's the experience that tells me how to handle this situation?

And if a story dials up that says, this is good, green lights, go ahead, you know, then you enter full speed. And if you dial up a story that says danger, warning, we've had a bad experience here, you know, then your guard is up. And if you can't find a story at all, then you you also hold back because you're not familiar with the situation. So really stories are like the software of the brain telling us what to let in and what to reject. And so

If you want to change how people think and behave, it really starts by giving them a new story to be their go-to story when they enter your situation. Yeah, that's fascinating. It reminds me of I used to teach persuasion and we would talk about data first order, second order, third order data, and first order is personal testimony. Right. It's the least reliable, but it's the most persuasive. Yeah. And so

Even in court, you can have all these experts come in, but then a eyewitness who, you know, might have been looking through a dirty window comes in and tells her story, and she is going to be more persuasive than than the experts in a lot of cases because people can relate. Yeah. They want to hear that story and they believe them. They b they relate to them. So it is so persuasive. And I like this idea of when you're trying to affect change.

To come, you're almost coming armed with a story. And it's a gift to your listeners. And when it comes to you know colleges and universities telling stories, one of the great areas of mistakes made is that what makes stories interesting are the things that surprise us, the moments where you know we didn't see that coming, right? If somebody tells you a story and you know from the get-go, I know exactly where this is going and how it's going to get there, you know, it's not very interesting, right?

Cheryl Broom (11:53.849)
But if someone tells you a story where it's like, didn't see that coming. there's another twist, another turn. Anything that sort of surprises you gets your attention, that's good. And the problem with a lot of colleges and universities is when they tell stories about their outstanding students or their award-winning professors or the wonderful programs, it's just one good thing after another. And there's no surprises, there's no wrong turns, nobody makes a mistake. And that is deadly when it comes to storytelling. If a story is boils down to,

There's this thing that I wanted to do and I did it and it's done and it's mine. You know, good for you. Nobody cares. It's just not interesting. And so many stories. I'll read about students at colleges. They'll say, you know, Cheryl came to our college first in her family to go to college. And she chose this course and bonded with this professor and graduated with honors and now runs this company and is a happy graduate. Won't you please give? It's like, you know, you've just bored the person to tears because.

That story never got interesting. It was just one happy moment after another. And one of the absolute rules of storytelling we learn out here in Hollywood is no conflict, no story. If there's never a moment of tension where something happens we don't expect or takes a wrong turn or something just runs contrary to our expectations, then we're just not interested. And I see that an awful lot with colleges and universities and higher education as a whole.

So, how would you take that student success story and make it more interesting? Like, what would you bring in as an example? You know, I'm Cheryl and I'm first generation. Like, what would make that a more powerful story? You have to find the moments where your expectations weren't met. Either they were wildly surpassed or you changed your mind. You came in thinking, I'm going to be a political science major, and something happened to change your mind and sent you down the path of being an English major. You know, moments of change, surprise.

Wrong turns, anything that defies the expectations of the audience will be interesting to them. So there's lots of different ways of doing that. That's one of the things when I interview people to capture a story, I'll often ask questions like, What did you expect going in? Did it meet your expectations? What surprised you about that experience? Were there any down days for you? When did you doubt yourself? One of the other things that's appealing in storytelling is when characters are vulnerable, when they admit that they

Cheryl Broom (14:21.825)
Are concerned, are scared, don't think they're going to get there, etc. For an audience, for a reader or a viewer, that's our chance to enter the story and root for them. Come on, Cheryl, you can do this. I'm on your side. But if the character in the story is is invulnerable, is perfect, knows what they want, goes for it, gets it, succeeds, you know, good for them. There was no room for us to enter the story. So those are all things that make stories more interesting to the reader or the audience. There was a story I saw on LinkedIn from

I think it was UC San Diego of a first generation college student. And she did defy all odds. But what made her story so interesting and impactful, and it when I came across it on LinkedIn, it must have had like a hundred, a hundred and fifty thousand, you know, plus things and likes is her parents were field workers. And when she graduated, she put on her cap and gown and took her parents.

Into the strawberry fields and took her graduation photos picking strawberries because that's what put her through college. Wow. And it was such a beautiful story. And her parents, you could see, were like weathered by the sun and had picked strawberries to put their daughter through UCSD. Right. That was a powerful story because, yeah, there was an obstacle, there was sacrifice, there was an image.

I think that was such a great example of what you were talking about. Like she she and her family fought hard for something and you wanted to celebrate with her because of that. Yeah. I mean, I've I've seen great stories of like there's one course where students were challenged to build something. I forget what it was, but the raw materials they were given look like this is never enough to get this project done. It's like, how are you going to do it? But they had to creatively put the pieces together. But at the outset of the project,

You know, as a reader or a viewer of a video, you would think to yourself, There's no way they can do this. You know, it just can't be done. And then when they actually figure it out at the end, which you hope that they will, I mean, you you think it's gonna be a success story, you are surprised, you are pleasantly surprised that they could pull it off. Cheryl actually goes back to evolution. Human beings, Homo sapiens, evolved to pay very close attention when something happens that we don't expect. It was literally a survival mechanism for.

Cheryl Broom (16:43.203)
Prehistoric human beings. If if we pay attention when something happens we don't expect, we survive. You know, if we're oblivious, you know, we get eaten. So 70,000 years later, when we're living in the modern world, and someone tells us a story that captures a slice of life, what holds our attention is that thing we didn't expect. That's where something very deep in our reptile brain opens our eyes and goes, pay attention. This is different. Didn't see this coming. I need to watch closely. So

If your story has those things in it that people don't expect, something very deep starts to vibrate in our hearts and minds saying, pay close attention, you need to see this. So having something unexpected definitely makes a better story. But what makes a better storyteller? How can we as individuals become better? Like, do you have to be polished? Do you have to be funny? Like, what are some things we can work on as individuals? Well,

Really good storytellers, one thing they have in common is that as they tell a story, they give you enough information so you can see it in your mind's eye. They they paint pictures. If it's if it's just someone talking, right? And there's no video behind them, there's no pictures, then their descriptions have to be very visual because you want the audience to see it in their mind's eye, right? So good storytellers will paint pictures and give you just enough so you can see it, but

Leave something out so you want to know more. Good storytellers are always pulling you deeper and deeper in the story, making you feel like I can see it, but I want to know what's what's behind that curtain, what's through that door. They don't give away the ending. When you tell a story as a news person, as a reporter, your job is to tell people quickly and concisely, this is what happened. This is all you need to know. You want to read deeper in the article, that's fine. But the first couple of paragraphs telling you everything you need to know. But as a storyteller,

When you want to pull people in, you give them just enough up front to tell you who's a story it's about, what it is that they want, and then then send them on this journey in pursuit of this thing, leaving until the end the payoff, did they get it or not? And if they got it, you know, what did they learn? Or if they didn't, what did they learn? So good storytellers are very visual and they know to save the ending for the ending, to slowly dole out information. So people are getting more, but wanting more at the same time.

Cheryl Broom (19:05.24)
It makes perfect sense and it sounds so easy, but people struggle with it. They do. But you know something? I mean, if you if you think about how you tell stories in your own life, if something happens to you and you go home to tell it to your spouse, significant other, family, whatever, you don't, you know, tell them right up front the ending, right? You come home and you say the craziest thing happened to me today. And then you start to tell them the story. And then the payoff is what happened, right? You don't start off by saying, My computer was stolen.

Let me tell you what happened. It's right. It's like, no, you you sort of save it for the ending. So I I think that if people just could observe themselves telling stories casually, informally to friends and family, they would learn a lot. In fact, Cheryl, when we do our workshops, you ask people, how do you teach this? One of the first things we do is I sit down, I say to people, I actually have very little to teach you today. You know, you know how to do this. I'm going to prove it to you right now.

So we'll get people in circles at tables. Let's say six or seven people at table. And I'll say, here's the assignment. go around your table. Each person will get two minutes. And I want you to tell a story about a time in your life when there was something you really wanted. Okay? Any time, anything. It could be when you were five, it can be last year, it could be yesterday, preferably not work related, just a time in your life when there's something you really wanted.

And that's it, no further instructions. And so they go around the table, and everyone has two minutes to tell a story about this time in their life when there was something we wanted. And people tell stories about wanting a bike for Christmas or wanting to go to Paris or falling in love and wanting this person to fall in love with them. And people laugh and they cry and they have a great time. And then when they're all done, I say, okay, so you just heard five or six stories at your table. Let me ask you this. What did the stories have in common?

Even though I gave you no instructions on how to tell a story, what did you notice that everybody instinctively did the same way? And someone will raise their hand and they'll say, Well, everyone started their story by saying how old they are or where that where they lived at the time. I'll say, Right. You'll start with some context to establish the where of the story, the when, the starting line. Because people need that. They need to know where this story begins. Good. What else? Someone will raise their hand and say,

Cheryl Broom (21:30.287)
Well, they didn't just get what they wanted immediately. They had to work for it. I'll say, right, that's what makes stories interesting. It's not just something you can reach out and grab. You have to overcome various barriers and obstacles along the way. That's really where stories get interesting. And in that back and forth, people will identify all the parts of story from beginning to middle to end, protagonists, goals, barriers, conflict, strategy. Everything is there. And so I'll say to them, What you just did, all these parts you just recognized.

That's storytelling. Now let's simply apply it to your work. And then we we get into that portion. How fun. I want to go to one of these workshops. Let's do it. Let's do it. But we do we do when we go to colleges and universities, you know, they'll say to us, you know, for example, MIT. They had just gone through a branding exercise and they said, out of this branding exercise, we've gotten three messages about MIT. Message number one is we are reinventing education. Message number two.

We are unleashing entrepreneurialism. Message number three, we are tackling the world's hardest problems. So no lack of ambition at MIT, right? Now we need stories to back up those messages. You know, that those are bold statements, but they only come to life if we can tell stories. So let's do that. So when I went to MIT to do that, to teach them, we started with the exercise I just told you to sort of loosen people up.

Get them to tell stories about a time in their life when they wanted something. And when then when they realized, okay, I do know all the parts of a good story, then we started to apply it to those three three messages from their branding. And that is such a great example of how to integrate stories into your marketing and communications because you've got great brand statements. Right. Now you got to show them. Like if the words aren't enough, you have to actually prove it. And the stories will prove it. And it gives you the framework.

To go look for stories that fit within that brand construct. Right. We we tell people all the time, just look at your website. It's filled with cues for stories you should be telling, the brand statements, the core values, the things that you say about your students, about your faculty, about your programs, about your relationship to the community you're in, all of those statements, all of those bullet points should have stories to back them up, to say this is what it looks like in real life.

Cheryl Broom (23:53.611)
What a great advice to go looking. A lot of our listeners are from community colleges and they struggle so they have so many stories. Like there's nowhere I'm convinced in the world that has more stories than a community college. Because if you are over the age of 14, you can go to a community college. Like any walk of life. Yep.

Any background, just these amazing stories. And yet when most community colleges talk about themselves, they say things like, We're the most affordable place to get an education. Right. you know, we we have 10,000 students. Like it's so boring. Like it's like, and they all sound the same. And there's 1500 of them in the country, and they're not all the same.

But they really struggle with how to differentiate themselves and tell their individual stories. Well, I agree. We work with some community colleges and they have fantastic stories to tell. And you know, in in the pipeline from high school to the workforce, they play an absolutely critical role. So yeah, I think community colleges have wonderful stories to tell and could use help telling them because you're right. I see the same problems that you see. Yeah. $46 a unit.

Yeah. It reminds me, I work with nonprofit organizations all the time and I watch them define themselves. We are a nonprofit that does blah, blah, blah. It's like really, let's start with your tax status. That's the first thing you want to tell people. I struggle with that too, but I have a nonprofit college I'm working with and they want to put nonprofit in everything. I'll like take it out and put it at the end and then the CEO will move it back to the beginning. Why is this so important to you? But I I think they think that that is a story in itself.

But it's not unless you tell it. Why isn't it important to your organization? We're not in it for the money. We're not in it for the money. And then yeah, there can be a story around that as well. So gosh, such interesting things. When you work with an organization, who do you typically work with? Like what type of people come to your trainings? You know, it varies, but often a college or university will come to us and say, you know, we want to get better at telling our story. So we're going to assemble the people who are most responsible.

Cheryl Broom (26:05.253)
For telling our story to the outside world. So that would include admissions, that would include fundraising or development. Sometimes it includes athletics. Sometimes it includes faculty. Sometimes it includes alums. So usually it's a mix, but the only thing that defines them is that at some point or another, they've got to go into the outside world and talk about that college or university. So they want to get better at it. Yeah, I could really see this being valuable for foundation boards who are out fundraising.

Learning to tell those stories because they're old, they need to get people excited and wanting to give gifts to their college and university. Yep. When I was out of college, I was always asked to write one sheets for the foundation that were basically like canned stories. So they could go out and say the student had belonged in a gang, they really struggled, they had an addiction. This is a true story, actually. One of my former students was a high school dropout gang member and is now.

running for mayor of Oceanside, just an amazing transformation through education. And, you know, being able to go out and tell his story and have him speak about his transformation just moved people to want to be part of the college community. So we saw the power of that constantly. Yeah, I find that the people who are involved in fundraising don't need to be convinced that storytelling is important. They've been out there, they do it, they know that stories are the currency of fundraising.

Couple more questions for you, tactical questions. Cause a lot of the people who are listening write for a living or or write for their college president. And so you had talked a little bit about the type of questions you like to ask during an interview about meeting expectations. how do you get people to share with you things that make a story more interesting? You know, when you're interviewing them.

How do you make them comfortable, willing to to give you those details that make such a good story? That's a very good question. Ira Glass, the host of This American Life, is one of the best interviewers I've ever heard on the radio. And he has some specific advice here. He says that if you want someone to open up and be honest and authentic and present, you, the interviewer, have to be all those things as well. He says, being a good interviewer is like is like throwing a good party for two people.

Cheryl Broom (28:27.277)
you have to be a great host. And so if you want them to open up and share something personal, it helps for you to open up and share something personal, not randomly, you know, relevant to whatever you're talking about, but you don't want to come across feeling like a prosecutor in a courtroom or a reporter sticking a microphone in their face. You want to come across as a a colleague or a friend or an equal who's just having a conversation and is invested in in the honesty and the sharing as they are. So you need to set that tone.

In whatever way you can, right from the beginning. Then when you ask them to tell the story, one of the things I like to do is relentlessly ask, and then what happened? Make them walk you through the story step by step by step. People tend to tell the story quickly, gloss over the details. They feel like I don't want to bore you or I don't want to appear immodest. So when they tell you a story, make sure they're not skipping over anything. Just say, okay, so you said this happened.

was there anything in between? Are we missing a step here? I'm not quite following how you got from A to B. Just relentlessly, and then what happened? And then what happened? Make sure they tell you the whole story. Ask them not only what happened, but how did you feel when that happened? Ask for the emotions in the story. If they tell you that something happened that was disappointing, did you feel disappointed? What did you say? What did you do? And then ask them to be descriptive. You know, when that happened, where were you?

you remember exactly what you said? Do you remember how you felt? Do you remember what you did right afterwards? Make them give you the specifics and the visuals that you're going to use when you tell the story, when you write the story. great advice. I love that throwing a party for two people. I think that is such a great analogy. Because we do you get you get so you have so much to do and so much, yeah, it's just so much to do. And then you have to do an interview and you're like,

I have to do an interview, you know. Not that I've ever felt that way. No, I no, I understand. Yeah, no, but if you want to just find a way to put them at ease to establish some type of common ground between you, I always, whenever I interview people, I always, you know, I looked at their LinkedIn page or whatever I can find out about them and say, Cheryl, nice talk. I see you went to the University of Oregon. Well, my wife was a duck. what when did you graduate? You know, how'd you like living in Eugene? You know, whatever common ground I can find.

Cheryl Broom (30:47.673)
We'll talk about that first so that they'll realize it's just like two people catching up, you know, you sit next to someone on a plane and you just start talking to them, you know? Well, yeah. And that's another tenant of persuasion theory is similarity and increases likability. Right. So I was just reflecting on this today because I have somehow hired three Davids and a Colleen, a Kirsten, a Kelly, and a Chris.

And I was like, clearly, this similarity theory is working in my business. Yeah. so well, for colleges, for anybody listening who who wants to get in touch with you, how can they do that? How can they learn more? go to our website, thegoodmancenter.com. We offer online classes, in-person workshops. We also do coaching and training, one-on-one coaching. storytelling is is the main thing that we do, but we also teach people.

How to give a good presentation? You know, if you're standing up with PowerPoint over your shoulder, how do you do that? Well, for organizations, how do you have more effective meetings? You know, with 10 of you around the table, how do you make the most of that time? We teach strategic communications. How do you plan a major campaign? And because all of us got stuck doing everything on Zoom during the pandemic, we did a report over the summer called Unmuted, which is all about people talking about what works and what doesn't.

in virtual meetings and presentations. So all of these things, you go to our website, you'll see we do all different kinds of trainings and coaching and hopefully we'll find a way to work together. Well, there's one thing that you said that I have to ask one more question about because it is the bane of our existence in higher education marketing, and that is the meeting. Yeah. So give give us a tip on how do you make them more effective because

When I was a director of marketing at a college, my entire job was attending meetings and answering emails. That was it. god. And then doing them simultaneously because there wasn't enough hours in the day. And there's so many poorly run meetings. So give give us give us your 30 second tips on running a more effective meeting. Well, if you look at the literature, the single best predictor of a good meeting is dot dot dot a well prepared agenda. And if you think, huh.

Cheryl Broom (33:08.643)
An agenda, isn't that just the list of topics we're going to talk about? Then you don't really understand what an agenda should be because a well-prepared agenda has a lot more to it than just a list of topics. There's many other elements I could tell you about. We don't have time now, but a well-prepared agenda is the moral equivalent of a strategic plan. It is a detailed plan for the next hour of your life about who's going to be there, what they're going to do, how you're going to get there.

And the resources you need to get there. So our webinar called Meetings for People Who Hate Meetings is 75% about how to prepare an agenda that makes sure that the right people are there, the time is well spent, that everyone arrives with expectations of what's going to happen and how to prepare, and leaves knowing what's expected of them. So, in one word, the key to a good meeting is the agenda.

And I think a good agenda shows the people attending the meeting that you as the host care about the meeting and and value their time. Yes. And aren't just holding a meeting to hold a meeting. Yeah. Another another synonym for a good agenda, it's a contract between you, the convener, and the participants that says, I am going to make the best use of your time. And one of my favorite things to say to

Meeting attendees when I'm done. If I've gotten through my agenda and we have time left, I always tell them my favorite meetings start on time and end early. Yes, I that is I like that. Yes. And and at Harvard, they end all their meetings with filling out part of the agenda called wwwdw, which is who will do what by when. Yes. After the meeting. Yes. And you have to verbally.

get somebody to commit to doing it. Yes, exactly. Though if people make commitments, it's put in the on the agenda and then the agenda circulated after the meeting to say this is what happened and this is what we expect as follow up. Well, I think that if our listeners can take away two things from you, it's a all the wonderful tips to become a better storyteller, but B, they need to bring you onto the college campus to teach their deans and their directors and their board.

Cheryl Broom (35:25.859)
to be more effective in meetings because they're a time suck. and they can be wonderful if you can run them well, but they can also be really detrimental. Well thank you. I'm officially gonna hire you as my hype person. Good. I am I am willing to do that. I will, I will toot your horn. Well speaking of starting on time and ending early, we are at time for our podcast. And I really do appreciate you and your excellent tips and I hope that people will look you up.

And I'm looking forward to learning more from you later this summer. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Yes, thank you. Thank you for listening to Higher Education Coffee and Conversation. If you like the podcast, please leave me a five-star rating. And to discover more great higher education related content, make sure to visit us at graduatecommunications dot com. And with that, I'm going to say thank you for listening.

Thank you for the hard work you do for students each and every day.