Cheryl Broom (00:00.078)
Hi, this is Cheryl Broom, CEO of Graduate Communications. Today I talked to Andres Orozco, who has taught screen arts and communications at Pepperdine University for 20 years. Also an actor, producer, writer, and director, Andres is the co-founder and co-owner of Novelas Educativas.

An award-winning production company that creates culturally relevant digital content across all platforms. Andres and I talk about creating authentic content and culturally relevant marketing campaigns, what the changing landscape of higher education means for students and for institutions, and we even swap a couple of casserole stories. If you're looking to spice up your own storytelling,

And make sure that you reach the Latinx audience in an authentic way. Then you'll love this conversation. Enjoy. Well, let's start off by having you tell me your story. Who are you? My name is Andrés Orozco. I'm originally from California and was there until I was about 10.

And then one of my dad's good friends, his son was killed in a in in a in gang violence. And I remember we used to live on this hill called Garretti and Gardy Loma and my mom says, go get your dad because he was drinking with his friend. And I remember walking up the hill, I was about ten, and I remember his friend was telling my dad that you know, you gotta get your kids out of here, it's pretty bad.

So my dad put in for a job transfer and he found like an affiliate of the company in Clarefield, Utah. So the next thing I know, my brother and I, who are, you know, comfortable in our little elementary school with 99% Mexicans in East LA.

Cheryl Broom (02:22.158)
And there was two white girls named Valerie and Nikki in the school at the at in in East LA. I remember them. And then all of a sudden my brother and I are the only Mexicans in the whole school in Clearfield, Utah. And everybody else was white. And there was a Hillary Air Force base. So we had about two or three black people in there. And we all looked at each other like, What are we doing here? you know? And that just changed the trajectory of my brother, you know, in our lives because we just

had this culture shock and then we had to adapt. You know, this was what, the early eighties. So, you know, there wasn't like tacos al pastor, you know, on the corner. There it was a lot of casserole, a lot of jello, you know, a lot of food a lot of food that we're like, what is this food? And then you amplify it with the with the the Mormon culture in Utah and then you know we're Catholic, you know, we're not

Mormon. it was like shocks on many levels. And but but I think it helped my brother and I navigate different scenarios, you know, different demographics. we were able to go to college. I never thought about and then get a master's degree. And right currently I'm getting a doctorate in higher education. So that was like my childhood and growing up. And then my professional career, I I became a professor at 29.

I just resigned as a professor from Pepperdine University after 20 years of teaching. It was a big step for me, but I started teaching November 26, 2001, a couple months after the towers fell in New York. And now 20 years later, I've I'm done teaching. This will be my last semester. And now I'm moving into more marketing.

commercial work. And it's something that my brother and I have done for 20 years, making films, commercials, you know, short documentaries. So we have a passion for storytelling, but now I'm moving into it full time at the spry age of 49. Man, I'm not the it doesn't feel the same as 29, I tell you that much, but I feel good. I feel like it was time for me to do this.

Cheryl Broom (04:47.938)
So now you know we have a company called Novelas Educativas. It's translated as educational soap operas, but you know, we kind of look at it more like the novelas with two L's, right? The stories. We we like to tell stories, and you know, everyone connects with stories because you know, universal themes work with everyone, regardless of color, sexual orientation, religion. It, you know, stories are connected with.

universal themes like you know loss, birth, death, success, right? Loneliness. we've all felt abandoned, right? These are all universal themes that resonate with people. And if we can tie universal themes with what we're trying to convey, you know, what message we're trying to convey if we wrap it in storytelling and put something that is universal. people

remember it, you know, they they gravitate towards it. There's power in parables, you know. So I think that if we continue to tell these stories that connect with people and sell education, you know, what I believe was my mobility, right? Out of the working class, right? And and the hard working class. My dad worked as a steelworker. I mean education was the way for me to

To get, you know, a better job, to have a better life and be healthy. Things that we don't think about, right? Like go to the dentist every six months, have health insurance where I can get checkups and live a longer life, you know, God willing. So I believe in in higher education and I and I I wanna sell that, but in a way that connects it with people and with something.

A little more profound than just you'll make more money. It really is a a way to change not just your life, but the the life of your kids and a lot of generations to come. So that's where I'm at. Well, congratulations on 20 years of being a professor. Yes, thank you very much. That is amazing. And it just seems like a natural fit that you would go from the classroom now to kind of a broader stage of.

Cheryl Broom (07:16.084)
of creating stories and marketing that gets more students into the classroom and and changes lives. And I have to admit that I grew up on casseroles. I started liking them afterwards there's there's a dish that the the Mormon people they serve. It's called like funeral potatoes. And it's like a casserole dish with like it's like potatoes and they have cornflakes on top.

And they bake it. You know what? I'm a fan of it. Like at first I was like, what is this? Why are you baking cornflakes? But after a while, you know, I I started to enjoy the different types of food here in Utah. And and you know, I left because I I got a teaching job in in 20 years ago in California. So I left Utah. But I've always kept a home in Utah. So

I split my time now between Southern California and Utah. It's been good. Thank you for that. I appreciate that. It was a good run. It was a good run. It is a great run. 20 years doing anything is amazing. So congratulations. And I I really liked it when you were talking about storytelling and more than just like, let's make more money. Because when you work in education, it it gets hard to tell stories, I think.

You know, it's so easy to say, come to our college, you're gonna make more money, or come to college and you're gonna save money, or we're gonna have great faculty. But it's hard to actually put together a compelling story that motivates someone to take a look at a college. But you do it so well. You and your brother are able to put that authenticity to storytelling that makes people pay attention. Thank you. Thank you. I I think it's getting harder though. I'll be honest with you. I I think that.

You know, we have a generation that is are great storytellers. I mean, like I'll be watching a movie with my daughter, she's 12, and she'll say, Hey dad, isn't that the all hope is lost moment? And I'm like, Yeah, it is. The I'll hope is lost moment. That means the new plan is coming up right now, right? I go, Yeah, it's the next scene, probably. She knows like all the beats within storytelling, you know, and and not just the storytelling, but young people.

Cheryl Broom (09:40.096)
Especially like the 17, probably more like the s the fifteen to like twenty-year-old, that demographic that we're trying to capture into the community college system or or higher ed in general, they're really savvy. And you know, my brother and I were talking about like they're seeing like maybe their older brothers or their uncles not being able to get a job or a hundred thousand dollars in debt with higher education and not

Being able to move out of their parents' house, you know, they're like, we joked around that. They're they're looking at Chet, you know, in the in the living room. You know, remember Chet from Weird Science, you know, from back in the 80s. You know what I mean? They're looking at him like, I don't wanna be Chet, you know, I don't wanna be this guy sleeping in the basement at 30 years old, completely in debt. So they're looking at higher education completely differently than their uncles or their older brothers because the selling of higher education will

You know, it was this the quad, you know, and it was these old type buildings. It was this prestige, it was this fraternity life, sorority life, it was this, you know, we saw it in the movies, you know, the National Lampoons movies or or just, you know, other types of movies. We saw like the college life that was sold to us through the media. And and I think that the younger generation that I spoke about, the 15 or 20 years, they don't buy that anymore. They're like, okay, how do I?

Get an education while I work, get as much financial aid as possible, work in the field that I want to get into. So when I graduate, I already have a job and I and these degrees are just to increase my pay, not necessarily put me into the door or bring me inside the the building. I'm already in the building. I I just want to get a degree so that I can climb financially. So

You and especially when I see parents are like, well, you know, I I want to send my kids off to college. And and I'm thinking, I don't know if they want that. You know, still the best bet for your money are community colleges, especially in California. That's where you're going to get the most out of higher education, I believe, in respect to finding a job, not being in debt. So it's easier to sell, I believe, the younger generation.

Cheryl Broom (12:07.458)
Than the older generation because they know what they want, but it's harder to tell a story that they know is authentic. Does that make sense? Yeah, perfect sense. And I was going back to thinking of your casserole dish, which by the way, my grandma made taco casserole. So next the I gotta try it.

You would shudder to see the ingredients. There's nothing Mexican in the taco casserole. But it's like we are used to selling basically like casseroles, like just sloth that everybody will like a piece of something in the casserole, right? But education's not like that anymore for people. Not everybody wants to to do it the way that you and I were taught it should be done. And as storytellers, we have to to catch up to that and start thinking about

the other audiences out there that want a different experience. Absolutely. And and the pandemic changed a lot of things, especially in respect to online education. You know, people were able to multitask in a way that they've never been able to multitask before. They were able to go to a meeting at work, get off a meeting, do some homework, take a class in the evening online, between that pick up their kids from grandma and grandpa's. I mean, they were able to like

move around and navigate in these different ways. And I think that the horse is out of the barn. You know, I I don't think it's going back in. If higher education doesn't make that transition quickly, they're going to be losing a lot of students to online education. And there was a book I read, and you know, now that I'm thinking about it, I can't remember the name, but this gentleman was talking about how there's only so many big markets you can conquer, right? So

Apple, right, has conquered different arenas, right? And Google, and you know, there's only like big monsters, right? There's like a couple of big ones left, right? There's like the airline industry, which is really heavy and mechanical and clumsy, and not many people are gonna take it over. But you have healthcare, that's a big monster that somehow they're trying to figure out how to take that over. But the big one is is higher education. It's not that far away where Apple or Google or

Cheryl Broom (14:28.84)
They're just gonna say, hey, let's just buy this online university and let's just make this completely streamlined all across the nation and hire all these out-of-work PhDs from Harvard or from wherever, you know, and and give them a job and and let's mainstream this, right? So unless higher education becomes really savvy that this could happen and migrate to online education.

And and there they'll, you know, obviously there's labs and there's brick and mortar that's still that is still needed, but things are a lot different. Look at the banking system, for instance. This is a great example. You know, now that we're talking about back in the days in the 80s, right? I remember you'd have to go to the bank, you know, do this, you gotta I mean it took you, it was an event. Like when my mom said we're going to the bank, it was a good half hour, 45 minutes, because we're in the bank, you know. And now everything is online. You go to the bank once in a while.

do a few transactions but but mostly it's on your app you know you're checking things you know if you have to deposit something you take a picture of it and and and different people use it some people use more then they got they like to go inside the bank more but a lot of people would like to just use their app and the banking system has been real quick on their feet to make those changes. Higher education has to make those changes and I don't know what's taking so long because

You know, I look at like these online universities that have been doing this for years. And what worries me about them is, you know, you have the for profits, right? And they have their place, right? But the the beauty about a community college is that it's subsidized by the state and the tuition is very low, and financial aid is really good, especially if you come from a lower to middle class family.

So the community college system has to understand that they're going to have to dip into the online system. They're going to have to make things a lot easier to navigate online. Once they do that and they get the recipe just right, they get the numbers right and the technology right, it it's gonna really boom in the in the community college sector. But the next question is now the the transfer, right? Where are they gonna transfer to? I'm a big supporter of

Cheryl Broom (16:50.498)
Whatever works for you, you know, if it's online or if it's brick and mortar, you have to transfer to an institution that's not gonna, you know, you're not gonna be, you know, $300,000 in debt when you get out, you know. So that has changed as well because this younger generation, they're not gonna put up with that. They don't wanna be straddled with debt for, you know, 30, 40 years. No, I mean, that's why we've seen such terrible enrollment numbers the last couple of years, particularly among men.

And men of color because they just don't see the value in getting an education. It doesn't have a real world value, especially if they're going to be taking on debt. But something that you said was so interesting to me. Like you asked why why is it taking higher education so long? And I've been now not as long as you, not 20 years. Well, actually, no, I'm a little younger than you. Yeah, you are. Yeah, you are.

But I'm pushing 20 years myself and it's like moving an ocean freighter. I mean, like change is so difficult, and people are so risk adverse. And so you think of higher education as so progressive and exciting, but it's god, it's just this like monolithic ship that moves so slowly. And I don't know how to speed it up. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe they'll be maybe forced to because they have to.

What I've seen and and I have a friend of mine who was a chancellor at a at a really big university. He got a job with an online company that and you know they're paying him crazy money, but what they do is is for instance, let's say you're you're a community college administrator and you have this great, I don't know, pharmaceutical program, and now you want to make it into an online program. Well, to do that, you know, you're gonna have to hire IT people, you're gonna have to

bring in a dean of so and so and it's and then the next thing you know you're straddled with all this payroll and you know firing somebody from a community college is damn near impossible. Damn near impossible, especially if you have tenure. I mean it's it's just not gonna happen. So it's really heavy to make changes because you're you're bringing on all these people. Well this company they'll come in and they'll build the pharmaceutical program online turnkey.

Cheryl Broom (19:10.026)
And they'll run it and you'll just make the money. So I I think that that's where a lot of institutions are gonna go with. They're gonna go with these companies that they specialize in turning curriculum into an online platform. And that's another thing. The curriculum is sometimes so outdated and it's so heavy. You know, students are taking classes they don't really need to take, but they've always been that way. They've always they well, that's what it's always been. And why? Why does it have to be that way? Students

Do not need to take all these classes if that's what they want to study, this, you know. So the curriculum has got to change, but then that's got to go through the curriculum committee. And you have all these different committees set up within the higher education system that are, I mean, they're there for a reason, right? But but then again, it used to work in the 70s and 80s and 90s and the 2000s, but it's it's not necessarily gonna work in the next 20 years. So

Yeah, it's this big massive tanker that somehow has got to figure out how to maneuver quicker, faster. And it doesn't. So I think that you know these online companies, they're going to start merging and merging. And then I think eventually when a Google or an Apple says we have a university, that's when everybody's going to stop in their tracks and go, uh-oh, uh-oh.

yeah, and it's already it's already happening. One of my clients is a large healthcare system in California that has started its own education arm because it doesn't have enough Allied health workers. So they went and started their own basically community college and they pay for people to get their education for free. How about that? Yeah. And within a year of starting up, they've already educated thirty five hundred Californians. So yeah, I mean, come on, you gotta if we don't wake up and start.

moving in that direction, you know, we might not see those those gains or we might not see people coming back to college the way they were pre-pandemic. And for us, when that that we market to potential students, I mean, that's something that they're gonna ask about, you know, why aren't they doing this? And then we have to somehow answer them through marketing. And so we're kind of stuck in between the colleges and the students. And how are we honest? But at the same time,

Cheryl Broom (21:37.066)
let the administrators know and you have to make some changes here because you're losing a lot of students and you're going to continue to lose a lot of students. Yeah, you're right. You were going right where I wanted to to talk to you about is as marketers, we want to sell this product that we believe in, that we know is important and life changing. And we want to do it in a way that is authentic. But then sometimes the students get to campus and

The marketing wasn't so authentic after all, or their individual experience wasn't what we what we led them to believe. So there's that disconnect as well. Yeah, yeah. And and and I hear arguments from both sides. You know, there's there's nothing like the studying together, the study groups and and meeting people. And yeah, I get it. But during the pandemic, I had two students online at Pepperdine that I put together in a breakout room and then I assigned a team project.

between both of them, they ended up falling in love. what a good story. And now they're gonna get married. They they found a way to meet like halfway like in Arizona or something during the pandemic to so you know, they can get to know each other online. These guys got to know each other online. So it all serves like going back to my bank analogy, I think there are students that say, hey, I need to go to the school.

That's where I'm doing like people that go to the gym. I need to go to the gym. There's some people that say, I have I like working out at home. Hey, good for you. But I'm one of those that likes to go to the gym or go somewhere where I can work out because then I can focus there. So you're gonna have a lot of students that do things differently. But colleges and universities, they're just gonna have those options for them and do it quickly and look at their curriculum and say, can we lighten this up? Do we need to teach all these basic classes?

when you know let's teach them one basic or two basic classes and then get them into the more advanced classes and then get them trained and then get them an internship and get them into the workplace. So there's a way to market the need and to just I think the best thing to do is in screenwriting we call it hang a light on it, you know. When you hang a light on it you're you're exposing it right. Like for instance if the actor doesn't have a sweater and

Cheryl Broom (24:03.81)
They're supposed to have a sweater and you just hang a line on it and say, Did you did you leave your sweater in the car? Yeah, okay. And then now people know the sweater's in the car, you know. So it's like once you hang a light on something and you say, Hey, this is what it is, then people are not trying to figure it out in their head, like, well, what no, say, you know, hey, we're building this, it may take time. We're transitioning to add more online courses. by twenty twenty-three, we hope to have this X and they're patient. They'll be like, Okay, you know, you know, as long as we're sincere and see this is

what's happening. And then I think that the students they're like, I'm not being lied to. Like people are honest with me. They're telling me what's going on. But for that, the administrators and and the people that that are hiring us, they also need to be upfront and honest with us and let us know what they're doing. You know, what are their plans so we can somehow work that into the storytelling. And and and I think once that happens,

Students are going to be more receptive to the situation. Because it it is, you know, these are crazy times in many ways. Sincerity, you and and Miguel, your brother, specialize in telling stories to the Hispanic community and doing marketing. You and I work together on campaigns to try to recruit students from all different backgrounds, but particularly Latinx students to the community colleges.

How do you communicate to that demographic? Like what are some important things that people need to pay attention to so that their message is authentic and sincere and doesn't seem, I don't know, phony or canned? There's been a a ton of books, right, written on you know Latino advertisement and and recruitment. And you know, I've read a lot of them and I'm sure you've read some. And the one thing they say is that it's a diverse community, right? I mean

Like in the LA area, right? It's it's it's really Mexican based, you know, a lot of Mexicans. But if you go to like, you know, Florida, right? New York, Puerto Rican, you have this, it has to be real local. I mean, your marketing has to be really, you to understand what is this demographic around you, like what language are you gonna speak? And it just can't just be Spanish. It has to be the the Spanish that is spoken mostly in that community. And then you you also have to look at

Cheryl Broom (26:29.014)
I the way I see it is, you know, parents play a huge role in in any culture, any race, right, with their kids. But the Latino community, the parents play an immense role. I mean, it's especially with the daughters, you know, where they're going to school, how far they're gonna go to school, you know, they're really involved. So with any marketing campaign to Latinos, I I always try to include at least one parent spot, like just for the parents.

because they're listening, you know, and and they don't have to know all the details. They don't have to know all the intricacies of the program. But it's good to arm them with dates. It's good to say, hey, make sure you get you have your kids do the fashion by October 1st. Hey, make sure that you know they they do this. And and once you give parents that information and they become partners with their kids, they really take that to heart and they feel like

they can be partners. I I remember I did a short film. It was called Amor Escolar. And it was it was paid for by the the WK Kellogg Foundation. And it was about a mother who was just really upset that the that the the daughter wasn't doing the things around the house and because she was studying, you know, and they had this argument in the kitchen and then the daughters just explained, Mom, I'm stressed out. I've got to get this done. You know, I don't have time to do the dishes. I don't have time to do that.

My room's a mess. I don't care, mom, because I have this final that I've got to study for. This means if I get this, I get to do this. And then she explains like the academic pyramid. Look, I'm trying to get an associate. If I get associates, I get a bachelor's. And then if I get a master's, and then you know, maybe in one day I get a PhD. And then once the mother knew, like, she's like, Well, where are you at right here? She's like, I'm right here at the bottom of the pyramid, Mom. I want to get a bachelor's. And then she like drew this academic pyramid for her mom. And then her mom just stands up and says, Have you eaten anything?

Then she's No, and she goes, Well, let make you some food. And it was that one gesture of the mother saying, Let me make you some food. That's that's all I can do right now. I can't help you study this calculus, whatever, but I can at least make you a sandwich. And then that movie, people played it a long time, and you know, they actually need to be like redone because they're so old now, right? They're like four by three, you know, like the little square, like they're not even 16 by nine, they're like four by three. But you know the story was so on point because.

Cheryl Broom (28:57.686)
We made the mother a partner in the education. So I think that goes a long way. And then when it comes to the to the young people, you know, they speak English. You know what I mean? They're not, we can't market them in Spanish to them because they they're English speakers. They're born in this country. If not, they're dreamers that came over when they were one or two years old. And this is all that they know. So we have to market them not as Latinos, but as young people with a backdrop, maybe.

Of their heritage. But they're English, that they listen to rap, they listen to corridos, they listen to banda, they listen to nirvana. I mean, they're real complex. You know, they're not just Mexican-American and this is what it is. No, they're there. Some of them love roca en español, some of them love Snoop Dogg. And going back to like how do you market to that wide group, but yet be authentic, it's going back to universal themes, right? If we can somehow

mine or excavate these universal themes. Like it doesn't matter where you're from, you want to make your your parents proud. It doesn't matter where you're from, you want to feel accomplished. You want to make yourself happy. We want to have purpose, right? All of us want to have this desire to to maybe help other people in some way.

And I think these are these universal themes that if we just focus on those and the character happens to be Latino. and and that's important. Another thing too I will say is colorism, right? A lot of times, you know, my brother and I will cast like darker Latinos because we've noticed that it seems like mainstream media really love to cast the lighter skinned Latinos. You know, we'll even cast black Latinos, you know, that are Puerto Rican.

and speak Spanish because that's part of who we are. And we don't really see that in mainstream because it's it's like they have to look a certain way. Unfortunately, the soap operas continue to do that in Mexico and in South America, Central America. It's like the lighter skinned you are, the more I I don't know. It's just so weird. you did a the commercial for when we were working together for the Orange County community colleges you cast.

Cheryl Broom (31:23.35)
A wide variety of people from different backgrounds. And we shot that commercial, or you shot it in English and Spanish. So both were spoken during the commercial. So yeah. And and we and we we we changed like that. I mean, we we could be speaking English and Spanish. You know, there's one word in Spanish. And then you have your traditions. no, no, no, you shouldn't do that. But that's how we speak. Yeah. I mean, that's that's that's what we're doing every day. We're speaking Spanish and then English.

And and we're mixing it up. So if I could summarize how to market to Latinos, is it are all those things and just be prepared for criticism. That's another thing. Is that no matter what you do when you're reaching out to to Latinos, you're always gonna have a group that says, Well, we don't say that word that way. And we don't say this this way. And and you're always gonna have people that nitpick because I'm Puerto Rican and I'm Cuban and we don't say that when.

And I'm like, you're missing the whole point. The point is we need Latinos in higher education, especially Latino men. They're disappearing. And how do we get them into higher education? Because no one learns alone. Even if you're, well, I'm gonna read a book. Somebody had to write the book, you know, or I'm gonna, you know, look at YouTube's videos, somebody had to make the YouTube video. You know, it's like everyone learns from someone else, right?

So we're trying to just get these young people, these young men of color into higher education where, you know, they can see things a little differently. And I always tell when I used to, I'm still teaching until December, right? So I still tell my students this. You know, college is not about an employer saying yes to you. College is about you saying no to an employer.

College is about you saying no to a job and finding the job you really like. It empowers you to be self-determined, right? To say, I'm going to go here. I don't want to go there. No, thank you, but I'm going go here. And when you tell young people that, that it's not about the money. It's about you having the power to say no and living your life the way you want to live it. They understand that. And they're like, that's what I want.

Cheryl Broom (33:48.652)
And a degree helps you get that. It may not guarantee it, but it helps you move in that direction. So I hope that this next chapter of my life, I can get these stories out and work with higher education, which is gonna change dramatically in the next 20 years. And let's let's hope I can.

Be a part of that change. Well, Andres, you already are a part of the change. And as we were talking, I was like, you and I have a meeting in 10 minutes to talk about another project. And I've written like four ideas down. So from what just what you said. I'm like, okay, we can do that. We could do that. I love that message. but I I think that what you and your brother have done with your company and your the emphasis that you have on storytelling is really unique and powerful. And if listeners want to

to see your company or find out more about you, where can they go and do that? We're at novelaseducativas.com. we have a YouTube channel, Novelas Educativas. And yeah, there's contact information, reach out to us and we'll be happy to talk to you. And and I appreciate the time here on your podcast, Cheryl. It's been a good experience and thank you for having me on. I appreciate it. Well thank you

Thank you for listening to Higher Education Coffee and Conversation. If you like the podcast, please leave me a five-star rating. And to discover more great higher education related content, make sure to visit us at graduatecommunications.com. And with that, I'm going to say thank you for listening. Thank you for the hard work you do for students each and every day.